This can be difficult to read for some of you. And others will have questions about this. That's okay. This is actually a very big discussion between the staff, pastors and Elders right now.... what is our stance on the interpretation of what paul is saying here. (and other scriptures that reference this same subject matter) You see, we somehow think that, because we have the ability to rationalize within our own brains, we can presume to know why God would allow some to have their hearts hardened or just rather take the stance of what Paul says in verse 21, that when a potter makes a jar, doesn't he have the right to choose to create one for enjoyment and one to throw trash into?
The problem at the end of the day is.... we always wonder why it's okay for God to choose to save some and not others, when we should be reveling in the fact that he chose to save us! It is our job to serve Him and worship Him. Not to decide who should be saved and who shouldn't. It's our job to evangelize His message so that, just as scripture says, those whom He has "drawn" near to Him, will hear His voice and message and answer that call.
This is a BIG, HUGE subject. I know that some of you will read it, post on it, and then think about it for the next few days. And then you'll begin to have questions, doubts, and speculations. I just want you to know. When that happens, don't try to just piece it all together for yourself. You have a staff of Pastors and Elders. We are all studying this subject and talking about it at length. Please take the time to talk to me. Call me on the phone, or grab me at rehearsal, or wherever. I do not profess to be the authority on this subject. I'm studying it too. But together we can have a conversation over it and I can show you what I've learned through talking with the other Pastors and Elders and reading the scriptures. Or if you're around one of the other Pastors or Elders, ask them.
Love you guys.
Wow, really difficult read. I am being completely open when I say this one challenges me a lot. Unfortunately, in a society of doubters, I feel this is the type of passage that gives many in our world the view that God is just the "judge" sitting on his bench waiting to make the choice as to whether we recieve His mercy or not.
ReplyDeleteWhat it shows me is that God's plan laid out focused first on the Jews and then the Gentiles. The difference was, the Jews sought to follow the law as if that was the way to God's heart, but in fact it was the Gentiles who serve as the example becuase they trusted in God and had faith in his promises, not in the law.
Ephesians 2:8-10 would have been a great cap to this chapter to me, as to me it ties so well with the point I hear Paul making. It is our faith that draws us to God, and not our works or our ability to follow the letter of the law. "8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 not by works, so that no one can boast. 10 For we are God's workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do."
Like so many other Bible chapters I believe I could take this one to pastors, elders, etc, and ask (what does it mean)? Would I get a different answer from each? In all likelihood, yes. Myself, I am by no means a Bible scholar but I think I do get some of it.
ReplyDeleteMany times in my life God just did not make sense. Ouestions like why is an unbeliever drowning in wealth and a true Christ follower living in poverty. Bad things happen to good people and good things happen to bad. Paul gives some good advice such as with the pottery.
Why question God? The problem is with our understanding having vision always clouded by sin. Sometimes I believe we have a clear picture of what God is doing and we just don't like it. Romans 11: 36-38 in my opinion simply says we are not capable of understanding God's ways. You know, I could save myself a lot of trouble sometimes by not trying to play God! I need merely put my trust in him.
God has always made it clear that we might not always understand why he does certain things but there is always a reason for what he has done. Unfortunately as humans, we need examples. There has to be a mixture of those who follow and those that do not. If all of us chose to follow we think that would make this world a better place but would it really? If we had no examples of what the consequenses would be if we did not follow and try to live a life that is pleasing to God. I praise God that I am not in the bucket that chose not to follow him but I have a lot to work on so that I can make him proud and he will one day say "well done my good and faithful servant".
ReplyDeleteWow. Good thoughts so far everyone! This is a debate that I want all of us to perhaps sit down at some point and talk about. Keep up your thoughts and insights. I'm making notes of these comments, in particular, because when we do have this discussion, I want to be able to go back and look at what y'all said. This is good stuff. I love this chapter!
ReplyDeleteI do wonder why Paul would say some of the things he said in this passage. Someone who's heart is hardened and is asking God, "Why am I this way or why have you made me this way" isnt arguing with God in my eyes. That person is seeking God in my opinion and is asking questions that a person who's heart is TRUELY hardened wouldn't ask.
ReplyDeleteThis begs to question, why does God choose who He shows mercy on and who He doesn't? What purpose does that choice serve? Does it not leave the human up to interpretations that would draw us further away from God and not closer to God? Why would one choose to live a life devoted to God if the choice for mercy was just that a choice?
You are right though..........this is a tough one.
Well I have always tried hard to avoid really looking into predestination. Did God choose to save me and destin others to go to hell? Or did he simply create us but since he knows all he knows what we will choose.
ReplyDeleteI tend to think it is the latter. As far as harding someones heart... God still gives us free will. I think that both sides have the opprotunity to influence our choices, but we still make the choice. I rarely know why God does things, but I know His character. That is what I lean on. I know that weather it seems fair or not... Its fair. I think I just don't have the ability to see the whole picture.
I think when we get to Heaven it may be that we see everything clearly. Have you ever had a dream where you had insight into everything only to wake up and not remember what you drempt? I think it would be like that only we would see clearly from then on.
When I start thinking about choice/free will/destiny, I get confused. It would be nice to have a definite answer, but we don't have one. So, I guess we just have to be thankful that we are the "chosen" ones and try to find the rest that don't know it yet.
ReplyDeleteRobbie, I'm really glad we're talking about this! It's such a hard thing to wrap my mind around. I've been reading a book called Desiring God by John Piper and the first chapter addresses God's sovereignty. It's a heady book and one that I keep going back and re-reading stuff I don't understand. But, he talks about God's sovereignty first because he says it's foundational in finding our happiness in God. This is a concept that I get parts of, but not all of.
ReplyDeleteFor me, this is a work in progress. The scripture I think of is in Isaiah where he says, "My ways are higher than your ways, my thoughts higher than your thoughts." I take comfort in knowing that He knows what's going on. I know he has a plan that he's working together for the redemption of His people. His plans can't be thwarted, not even by Satan. Otherwise Satan would have more power than God!
I'm glad that we're all working through this together. I hope we can learn from each other and grow closer to God in the process!
This raises a question of current times when I read this passage. What if the lives we are living now were all being used as an example of God's Word for a future generation- how would we be "living up to God's expectations". This brings the categorical division of different types of relationships with God, that Jeff Bode spoke about on Sunday, to mind. What if, like the Jews and Gentiles, we were divided up based on how well we've tried to establish a relationship with God. Not being a Christian and knowing who God is, but really Knowing God. What if our destiny was based on which Christians were just living the law, not through their actions, but through what they say they believe? Is it possible that there would be another division based on which Christians are just going through the motions to receive the wealth of living a life with God in Heaven, and the ones that pour their heart and soul into establishing a relationship with God, living a life that is pleasing to him, and sharing that Love with others?
ReplyDeleteWOW! How bout Molly going all N.T. Wright on us! LOL. (if you don't know who N.T. Wright is... he's like one of the most prominent theologians of our time. He literally is a rocket scientist.) Anyway, this is a great topic and I really want us to talk together about this some time. You may begin to see things differently and have more of a humble gratitude for your salvation. I know I do. Some of the conversations I've had recently with some of the other pastors have literally shaken the foundation of what I thought I knew about God. Anyway, fun stuff. Let's keep it going. BTW, if you guys are up for it, John Piper, the author Miranda mentioned, is also the lead Pastor of Bethel Church in Minneapolis, and he, too, is one of the great theologians of our time. He has a podcast that you can subscribe to for free, and there is one talk, in particular, that I would suggest you all listen to. It's called "Skeptical Grumbling and Sovereign Grace". Even better, if you want me to... I have it already and I'll email it to you. Just let me know.
ReplyDeleteThis was probably the hardest post to try and wrap my mind around to date. I still don't think I have a great grasp on it. I agree with so much of what has already been posted by you guys. I think we all questioned the "why and the when" in our life especially when it comes to prayers and blessings. I like Danny have often wondered how someone that isnt necessarily living a christian life can seem to have so much while those who try seem to struggle.
ReplyDeleteThe verse that caught my attention was 32 "because they were trying to get right with God by keeping the law instead of trusting in Him. They struggled over the great rock in their path." I think the difference should come in whether we stay down when we stumble or we get up and keep going because we know God has the whole picture and its all a part of His ultimate plans for us.
I know I can fall easily in being discouraged when things I thought I had prayed out didnt go like I thought they would. More times than not I have gone on to find that the blessing I thought I wanted wasnt near as good as the one God had waiting for me!
It is hard to think that God would invent a concept as ‘free will’ for no reason. It is also hard to comprehend God’s foreknowledge and understand how that foreknowledge affects God’s purpose for us and the route he lays for our lives. I believe that God does have an elect. As stated in my Bible’s notes “Many believe that God elected Jesus, and all who are in Christ by faith share that corporate election”. I know I cannot comprehend infinite wisdom. However this inability creates a beautiful opportunity for faith.
ReplyDeleteWow, what a discussion. Sorry I'm so late jumping in. This is an area that has been very heavy on my heart for the past few years. I grew up in a church that essentially dismissed the idea of predestination, but never explained why. We always skirted around the issue and never really delved into passages of scripture like this one. Unfortunately, I never took the initiative to look into it myself, I just relied on others' interpretation.
ReplyDeleteLet me say this up front, I don't think any of us can give a definite black or white answer to the predestination conundrum, that includes me. I think this is one of those things that we will all have to wait until we get to heaven to fully understand.
Here's what I do know: God doesn't give any of us the power nor the right to determine upon whom he has "mercy" upon whom he "hardens." God uses us as the vessel to spread his word. We are the vessel to spread his word to all people whether they are predestined to receive God's mercy or not.
I somewhat play devil's advocate here because while I don't want to come to a conclusion on the whole predestination issue, one of my main criticisms with the pro-predestination argument is that many supporters of predestination believe that Christians can take a hands-off attitude when it comes to missions work and discipleship. This theory compels the attitude of: "God has chosen who he has chosen. They will come to follow Christ regardless of what I do."
Well, I think that argument minimizes the Great Commission. Who are we to say something like that to God? Maybe we are part of God's plan to bring that person to Christ. Just like Danny said, “Why question God?”
Nowhere in this passage nor anywhere else in the Bible does God define at what age people are to come to him, what type of people are to come to him, where people are to come to him, etc. We can’t limit our focus on children, or youth, or college students, or special needs families, or the elderly, or the poor, and on, and on…
No matter what side of the debate you take, I hope no one would take a hands off attitude when it comes to bringing people to Christ.
I don't know if any of you have seen or heard the soundtrack for "Jesus Christ Superstar," but this passage reminds me of that. Judas sings a song about God chooses him to betray Christ and I never thought about it that way. God does choose, but I believe he also changes. The power of prayer is great and Pastor Erik had a sermon about prayer and how it can change God's mind. So even though it's scary, I do believe God is a loving and forgiving God. I believe He has a plan for each person, and I believe He is more flexible than those people who see Him as sitting on the judgement seat think. I can only pray that He has chosen me and that I return His choice by following Him. Sometimes I see myself as "the rich young ruler," who doesn't want to walk away from all she's got going for her.
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